Save the Human Heart from Extinction

Thank you Amadon for the loving presentation, which is  most apparent in the video. 

As is often the case, I find what you are addressing to be very important and would like to add to it, and focus on how shame interferes with intimacy and contributes to the loss of habitat, the loss of relationship, of which you speak.  How shame is a powerful contributer to some of the factors that interfere with intimacy of which you spoke: fear, insecurity, hurting one another, and lashing out for self-protection. 

Let's define shame as someone disliking who they are, or finding themself to be bad or damaged in some way.  Let's say this person has a child and because they do not love themselves, they do not relate to the child in a loving and supportive manner, but rather, they project their own shame, and criticize and shame the child, who grows up not liking who they are, or finds themself to be bad or damaged.  At the same time, the child anticipates that others in their world are going to further shame them, and so they keep some distance, to avoid further pain. 

Aside from anticipating more pain from others, there is another more insidious way that relationships can be painful for someone who feels shame.  When we are alone, we can easily ignore who we really are.  However, part of us is observing ourselves all the time, and this part usually watches more intensely and closely as we relate to others.  This is because we internalize the “witnessing” that is going on in our interactions with others.  This is very apparent in popular language regarding being “self-conscious.  We can only be “self-conscious” when we are with others; others “make us” self-conscious.  So, through interacting with others, our “internal witness,” is more active and perceptive.  Additionally, we get to see how we actually do interact with others, which can be another source of self-evaluation, good or bad, supportive or shameful.  In this way, we get to know ourselves through others.   In various ways, we ask ourselves, “What are they thinking about me?  How do they see me?  How am I treating them.”  All the while, we are answering how we view ourselves.

Now, if we have shame or shamed parts of ourselves, what we see when we interact with others, is those shamed parts.  It is easy to hide these parts in superficial relationships, and to keep our painful shame from ourselves, e.g., in internet relationships.  However, in intimate relationships, this is not possible.  In fact, levels of intimacy may be defined as how much of yourself you are bringing to and sharing in your relationships.  Hence, the greater the intimacy, the more, and deeper, the levels of yourself your are bringing and sharing.  And, the deeper the levels of yourself you are sharing, the deeper the levels of shame that may be associated with those levels, and the more painful to see them.  Hence, it is more difficult to establish and maintain intimacy when one has shamed based sense of self. 

There are cultural factors that also contribute to our shame, and in doing so, increase our separation from one another.  When we compete with others, when we want to “keep up with the Jones',” when we believe that we must be those “ideal” types presented through advertising, this can increase our shame.  In turn, this fuels other types of shame, and further intereferes with our capacity for intimacy. 

Amadon, you have mentioned trust and forgiveness as two necessary features, or prerequisites, for healthy interactions and for intimacy.  I cannot agree more and would now like to discuss how these can counteract shame.  First, when you can forgive me, even forgive me for the ways that I feel damaged or bad, I can more easily forgive myself, and this can serve to undo shame.  This is a corrective experience, correcting the shame that has been given to me from others earlier in life.  So Love from others, heals shame.  Furthermore, in this way, our fears of intimacy interfere with our ability to heal our shame, which keeps us from intimacy, and so on, in a negative cycle.  In other words, shame has a self-perpetuating mechanism, “making sure” it goes on.  Shame by it's nature causes us to hide ourselves, and by doing so, we prevent those parts of ourselves from being seen and forgiven and healed.  In yet other words, the very thing that shame keeps us from doing, exposing ourselves, prevents us from getting what it would take to heal our shame, intimacy and love.  This is the intrapersonal shame cycle.  As described shortly, there is also an interpersonal shame cycle. 

Second, when I trust you, I do not think that you are going to shame me, but rather, that you will support me, even accept my weaknesses and help me through them, but certainly not shame me.  This allows me to reveal more of my presumed to be “damaged and bad” parts to you, to be forgiven, i.e., accepted and loved.  

The Interpersonal Shame Cycle: When we feel shame and we run from intimacy because of it, we could cause others to feel shamed, e.g., by rejecting them, and causing them to feel unloved or even unlovable.  By projecting our shame and self-criticism on them, we perpetrate and perpetuate the interpersonal shame cycle.  Shame is prone to projection through judgmentalism.  It is nearly universal that people who harshly judge others, harshly judge themselves, and visa versa. 

Implied in this is the idea that the opposite of shame is self-love, and while it seems trite because it so well known, self-love is necessary to love others.  Additionally, the unhealthy compensation for shame, is narcissism, i.e., pathological self-love, and self-aggrandizement.  These are behind the “Me” generation and phoney spiritual development that Amadon has criticized in the past.  The beauty industry is quite guilty of creating shame, causing mainly females to feel insufficient, then providing products to compensate for the insufficiency, in a narcissistic compensation, and of course, for profit. 

Another sad twist is that, while by receiving true love, we can heal our shame, if we are operating out of compensatory narcissism, our relationships can be ways to use others to feed our narcissm and avoid our shame, and not to heal it. 

Finally, I agree that there are now many more alternatives, that can be substitutes for true intimacy, e.g., as provided by the internet.  Making these choices consciously, and not substituting the superficial modes of interacting, with the most deep, is indeed, vital, in the most meaningful way.

All is One,

Doug

Feeling, Amadon, your heart-felt appeal to the human heart in each of us to reach out and love is SO important now. The time is really short, and real intimacy and close loving are becoming rarer and rarer. It is important, as you say Doug, to make conscious choices for real and deep loving NOW so the human heart can once again breath freely in an atmosphere of love and caring and deep nurturance.

Just as our physical environment needs immediate attention, so do our hearts. Please reach out and love meaningfully, deeply so that others may drink of that essential, life-giving water.

Lots of love for all of you, Francine

Everything that you say here is true Amadon. The millions of lonely hearts all around the world are living proof that there is not nearly enough close intimacy.

Doug, the things that you say about shame are true, and good, and useful. But that kind of evaluation and understanding is only useful when a person has already made a commitment to intimate relationship. People like to think that if they think long enough, and try to adjust their attitude and their ideas, they will eventually be ready for love and relationship. But that never happens.

We don’t learn to love people intimately until we love people intimately. We don’t learn how to live with people, and function cooperatively together, and have a close, functional relationship, until we do it. Once we have made that commitment, and jumped in wholeheartedly, then understanding can help us. But until then, understanding is almost useless.

People think that a there’s seminar that they could do, or a book they could read that would fix the problem of alienation. But that’s not what the soul cries for: seminars, or books, or analyses. The soul cries for REAL LOVE, the soul cries for intimacy and closeness; for living, functional relationship. That’s what it cries for, and that’s what heals.

So, thinking is not going to solve this crisis. No amount of understanding will. What we need to do is to create a close, trusting, intimate relationship with someone, or with many people. And we need to face the challenges of relationships WITHIN the relationship, and overcome our fears about that WITHIN the relationship. We can’t do it before hand. No way! If we try to do that, all that will happen is, we will end up with a big head, and WAY too little practice in trust, in close relating, in intimate love.

This message will only help insofar as people respond to it by changing their lives, by EMBRACING and COMMITING to close, intimate relationships, IN SPITE of whatever fears they have about that. Only then can all the shame and pain be healed. And only then can we experience the joy, and the wonders of deep, intimate human relationship. So that’s what we need to do.

Amadon said, “Every one of us as human beings, needs close relationships to be happy. We need to be loved, in person, and we need to love, in person. E-mails are not enough. Blogs are not enough. Debates on chat rooms and message boards are certainly not enough. This is not enough to satisfy the human heart — and the human soul — which needs a high quality exchange of a lot of love to feel that it is at home.”

Amen!

The human heart is not under extinction.It's just hiding.The number of divorces prove nothing.They could also means that people are being less afraid to give up possession, leaving so that love is not a comfortable retirement…….
As for communication…believe me ..if there is to be love..one type love can make you happy just by someone's existance…and this is no theory…it's true..by my own self.Because I don't simply or easily believe someone's words.
And when you're so much worried about the human heart…how can it instinct?

What if his heart had been asking him to leave you…to live his own life?Maybe he hid this in his work?Would you be better with that?
I can only show people that this is how you live with your heart…and it's much more complex than the nature. It is their choice to choose the way they live.
I think that would be a better way..to show them they have a choice.Rather than making them choose this.
No philosophy can be absolute.It is wonderful to be alone, but not always.And this is said by me.This is only what I can say for myself.We cannot get under someone else's skin.
A man is his own philosopher.He should be inspired..but never influenced.
You see, the heart is not a problem.Do you love someone Amadon?Do you call it love? You do.Do I love someone? Do I call it love?I do. Because every heart is different.Every heart does not follow the same rules.Infact there are no rules.Just desires of the heart.Riddles of the heart.Not every heart seeks the same. A nonsense for someone must just be  the truth of some heart.

About global warming?Poeple aren't a herd of sheep that will run here and there when they see a wolf coming.Although some will just do that- panic.Some will make an effort.Some will ignore.And some will be too scared to face it.
But atleast there will always be some people who will make an effort.
About chat groups….if a virtual world brings a smile on man's face…makes that one moment beautiful…let him live it…till he wants to make his real world like that.

I think people would be more of living their lives if they were living for the moment…trying to make that moment special…than admiring those in movies..

Amadon,

I believe that developing and maintaining close relationships is a profound consideration in the search for human happiness, and appreciate your comments greatly.  I found the above comments by Awakened Doug in line with my personal experience. 

In my opinion, we create outcomes that impact our well being as results of our behavior.  To gain good results, we must practice virtue.  The greatest virtue is to enhance life.  This is ultimately the purpose of relationships, to enhance life.  Yet when relationships become infected with the idea of sacrifice to common good, one party is diminished in deference to the beloved.  Conventional opinion presumes this as a natural state, a communal collectivism in which the unit is of greater importance than the parties to it, each sacrificing to the beloved.  Demands in the name of love are emotional pick pockets. Using threats of abandonment to trigger fear of rejection some attempt to wrest ill gotten emotional gain from their loved ones.  One cannot indulge in this behavior and not feel the shame of a common thief.  We abuse and are abused in the name of love but wonder at our antipathy toward close relationship.

Naturally, we love what we admire.  We naturally love that which enhances our life.  Others love in us what enhances their life.  Virtue is sacrifice turns this on its ear and causes our relationships to founder.  Rather than revel in the appreciation we should feel, we can't because it would be selfish and of course by conventional standards, the prime evil.  We also cannot revel in appreciation for others if our choices stem from a desire to help others, rather than self.  Principled selfishness is actually the prime good and we earn others love by providing life affirming value, for our own selfish reasons.  Mutual benefit is the basis of abiding love, respect, and trust necessary for close personal ties.  Unfortunately this has become something of a rarity, along with close personal ties and a feeling of community. 

Collectivism in politics, economics, or personal relationships denies individual life as the highest value.  The collective takes precedent.  Yet without human life, there is no one to consider or appreciate values.  When we try to determine the actions to sustain relationships, our reason, rationality, self interest, and respect must be the guiding force in the interaction.   

To develop sustainable relationships, we must choose those individuals whose natural characteristics will benefit us by their association.  If we are not selfish in this choice, what is the purpose of association?  Think for a minute.  Suppose we choose to associate with those who natural tendencies harm us by association.   Our relationships will be tumultuous and prone to failure, but whose fault was it?  Ours for being selfless, or altruistic choosing needy and dependent relationships while thinking our purpose in life is to serve others. 

Our relationships must be life affirming, and beneficial to all parties to be sustainable and close.  I sense our diffidence toward close relationship owes much to the folly of the idea that virtue is sacrifice.

Regards,
Jim

I am addressing Amadon's and Asha's comments to my initial post on this blog.  True enough that widespread consciousness/awareness of the decay in quality of relationships and intimacy is essential and I wholeheartedly (not sure if pun intended or not) support your efforts in this regard.  

Just as awareness of the problem is necessary, I also am sure that awareness plays a role in the solution.  I offer the following as a more applied approach to the issue of how shame interfers with intimacy, with the intent of providing greater awareness of this and how to resolve it: 

My experiences, both regarding myself, and with others, has shown me that people's shame, the ways they feel they are not acting in “appropriate” accordance in various ways, or fear exposing their weaknesses, substantially interfere with intimacy and other ways of deep relating.  So, yes motivation to relate is absolutely necessary, but having the courage to risk presenting yourself, in all of your glory and “weakness,” is also essential to deep relating, and in the right context, is healing. 

I am sure that there are moments in our relationships when we decide whether to expose something about ourselves or not, and too often, these decisions are made unconsciously out of self-protection, and prevent us from doing so.  These are moments of critical intimacy choices involving courage and risk.  Choosing not to expose these parts of ourselves, puts a brick in the wall that separates us.  It is like saying, “This part of me is not acceptable, so I will not let you relate to this part of me.”  Choosing to expose these parts of ourselves, deepens our connection.  It is like saying,  “This is who I am.  I am sharing this part of me for you to relate to” and there is a deepening in intimacy.  You are also inviting them to be themselves, as if you are saying, “Will you be who you are, because I want to relate to you.”  If at that moment, or sometime later, they share more of their “weakness,” then you are that much closer, that much more intimate. 

There is a saying that I heard recently, “We like each other for our strengths, but we love each other for our weaknesses.”  While I don't believe this 100%, there is an important truth here, and this partly has to do with intimacy.  Also, loving someone for their “weaknesses,” is Love healing, and can turn “weaknesses” into strengths. 

Additionally, honesty about someone else's potential points of “weakness,” may cause our desire not to shame them to stand in the way.  These truths must be spoken as well, in the most loving and caring way, so as not to add further shame, e.g., “I love you, and see that you don't like “this part of yourself,” but that is o.k. with me…” 

Note that self-awareness, however it is obtained, is essential for this to occur.  We must remain aware of how our fears of exposing ourselves may stand in the way of our sharing with others.  This includes knowing what we feel “weak” about, which are things that we may also tend to repress, and deny about ourselves. 

So, I encourage everyone, with someone who they trust and feel will honor them, to share their “weaknesses” and receive the Love that will heal.  As a caution, this cannot be done wrecklessly, with those who may further shame us.  Or you could do it with an issue that despite being a “weakness,” you have accepted in yourself, so regardless of how the other responds, you will not be harmed.  If it is an issue that you still feel very vulnerable about, be more careful about who you present it to, and how you present it.  However, nearly all of us have someone we are close enough to, to share something about ourselves that we have not.  Try it, you'll like it.  

With Love,

Doug

Hi Amadon,

The image of a loss of habitat is a good one. To me, it appears to be a relative loss though…
The cognitive development and mode of interaction is pushed forward just about everywhere: school, society, business, people to people interactions, self help books, spirituality…
The emotional development line is impoverished, and in the name of self-sufficiency retreating further.
The key seems to be to authentically live in a community - and let that reclaim of habitat emerge through the loss of fear (of the “other”) that allows a loving response.

If all that is, is only Self, who are you afraid of?

Peace and Stillness,
Mirnas

Dear Jim,

It is true that relationships have been infected with many harmful ideas, and that is a lot of why people fear relationship. 

The idea of sacrifice in today’s culture is one such idea. When used as you have described it, to manipulate or blackmail a person, it is certainly a hurtful thing. However, for your sake, Jim, I’d like to distinguish between the common, negative idea of sacrifice and the positive reality of sacrifice.

As a parent, I am sure you are no stranger to willing, positive sacrifice. When your children were infants, and they cried at night, no doubt you (or your wife) got up to care for them. You didn’t say, “I will have more aliveness tomorrow if I keep sleeping, and that will be good for both of us.” You wanted to get up and see what was wrong; fix it; comfort the baby. 

In the reality of positive sacrifice, as naturally occurs in relationship, one actually derives happiness from the furtherance of the other, and would be less happy putting one’s own convenience above theirs (because doing so is compressive to the spirit). Such a sacrifice is done freely and entirely volitionally, without concern for earning brownie points, or whatever.

I’m not trying to defend what goes on in the name of sacrifice in this world. Some of it IS negative, as you say. Actually, much “sacrifice” is actually quite selfish, when you look closely at it. For example, oftentimes martyrs in relationship are actually selfish people, who exhaust themselves because of what they want, and think they will get, by obligating another person through their service. That’s not sacrifice! That’s self-service. Amadon wrote a very good article describing this, called “Martyrdom with its Pants Down.” I recommend you read it for a really mind-opening experience.

I think the best conclusion is always to use one’s spiritual sensibilities. What is good for the whole may look like it’s bad for one’s self-interest, but that is only true when we construe self-interest most narrowly, and self-centeredly. When we take a higher view of self-interest, what is good for the whole IS good for each member. For example, turning down the thermostat may sound uncomfortable, personally, but if it conserves resources and reduces CO2 emissions, it actually is in our personal best interests. So, was it a life-diminishing sacrifice to turn down the heat? Not at all. It was life-supporting in the long term — and even, I dare say, in the short term. Because I’ve found that consciously transcending self-centered thinking is quite enlivening!

Love,

Sara

Sara Bon,

I believe most living entities are generally motivated by a self guidance system that is life affirming and perpetuating. This is normal and good.  I would use the term enlightened self interest or benevolence for the term positive sacrifice.  In exercising principaled selfishness, one's goal is to benefit the self. 

I do not share an aversion to such actions. I conceive that selfishness is good and natural, provided one is ethical.  I see that self interest is the prime motivation for action in line with our pro-life guidance system.  I sense that the ethics of altruism, which by definition diminishes one party to better another are flawed.  It is not supportive of life (ethical)  to sacrifice your means of perpetuating and enhancing life.  If you choose an action for  its benefit to you then as you point out it is not sacrifice.  However, it is anti-ethical (pro death) to advocate  the sacrifice of others for our benefit or to participate in our own self sacrifice.  I sense that mutual benefit is the only ethical and sustainable guide to human interaction.

Principaled selfishness is natural, life affirming and good.  The key word is principaled.  If we are ethical, we cannot accept unearned benefit at someone else's expense.  Our humanity would lead us to observe ourselves in the victim's shoes and ethical considerations would demand that we reject such benefit for it would carry a greater harm, dishonor in harming others. 

A ethical person who refuses to participate in anti-ethical behavior is by necessity limited to activities which benefit his fellow man in choosing actions to further his own well being.  Zig Zigler stated this as, “You can get anything you want if you help others get what they want.”  I sense benevolence and principaled selfishness are one and the same, and likely motivated by the same stimulus, enlightened self interest. I sense this is what you mean by positive sacrifice, and do not intend to get caught up in semantics.

Regards,
Jim

I agree with you Amadon.  My comments had focused on unhealthy shame and improving individuals self-esteem so that they can relate to one another more fully.  Your comments focus on healthy shame, i.e., appropriate shame that guides us, and as is often the case, your comments are addressing a higher spiritual level.  Just to clarify, on a social level, an example of healthy shame, is not running around naked in a public place, at least in this body phobic culture.  We train our children very early in many ways that this is shameful, often with subtle disapproving looks and discomfort on adults part when they are naked.  Another example, sticking to the relationship theme, would be not treating someone in a respectful manner, when they had treated you thusly.  There are many forces in our culture that sanction mistreating one another in a shameful way, even on superficial levels, and these obviously interfere with deeper levels of contact, i.e., intimacy.

I think healthy shame and how it applies to spiritual growth is worth detailing even more, at least for my Self:  Let me start at a level lower than the spiritual, once again.  In traditional Existential psychology, there is the idea of existential guilt (which is quite close to shame).  Existential guilt occurs when an individual is not living their life in a meaningful and purposeful way, and on this relatively deep existential level, they know it, and feel guilty.  This can and does contribute to depression, addiction, etc… often requiring significant life change to correct.  Now, Amadon, what you say about the superficial ego-boosting “You're o.k.” intervention would indeed be a too superficial intervention that would ignore the appropriate shame/guilt that is occuring, thereby perpetuating and even “sealing in” the depression, addiction, etc…  The only solution is a change to a meaningful and purposeful way of life. 

Elsewhere, I have written at length of how the spiritual is a “solution” to the existential dilemnas, and so in an effort to reflect what you, Amadon, seem to be saying, on a spiritual level:  When we are not living our lives in a Spiritual manner consistent with Higher Self, we may also experience shame and guilt, which also is appropriate.  Nearly every emotion has a purpose, and the purpose of this shame and guilt would be to tell us that we are not living according to our Higher Selves.  This shame and guilt is the Spiritual/emotional kick in the ass, to spur us on to be who we really are.  Is this some of what you are saying Amadon?  

Finally, returning to the focus of this blog, many of us are guilty of allowing relationships to deteriorate to a point that our hearts are starving to death, because we are not approaching one another from a sufficiently Spiritual level of Love and intimacy. 

All is One,

Doug

i disagree that there is any danger of loss of heart in the world today.  in fact, i can see that the heart of humans is growing stronger.  i think you are probably romanticizing the past.  the past was no bastion of deep caring love to look up to.  racism and sexism and lack of intimacy was just as strong (or moreso) back then.  nowadays, there are many, many emerging new waves of human awareness of heart.

I think there can be confusion between the medium and the message.  One can only communicate clearly about these things in a very intellectual manner as they are very abstract ideas.  It is another limit of the web and written communication.  We cannot see one another's emotion here. 

I was with a group of people I have known for 20 years yesterday (not the Porch), but with whom I do not have the deepest of relationships, and the subject of the internet came up and I presented the idea that the internet could be interferring with deep and intimate relating.  I had to repeat the point three times, during the discussion, to get them to even hear what I was saying.  They concluded that it did not interfere with the depth of their close relationships, but allowed for greater contact between more deeper contacts.  I suspect you would say that they were not even considering the depth of relating that you mean, but then how do we get people to see what you do mean? Specifically, what do you propose?

Earnestly and in Love,

Doug

Bless-You Friend for Share-ing


:-)

I believe everyone of us can find the truth in ourselves. We just need to to listen closely and trust our intuition. The answers are within, be strong! One can search endlessly in books, recordings, teachers and groups.  There are so many different paths to choose. Some lead to insight, others to distraction and waste resources and time. Perils do exist. The internet is a great tool to research groups and gurus. Best of luck on the quest, but remember to enjoy the journey!

The topic presented is in my opinion also one of great concern. I can't really speak for others as much as for myself: my own experience is a kind of catch22 where my sensitivity and fear of the ruthlessness of this world has caused more symptoms that actually prevent me from fulfilling my life in a way that seems fair and just to my rational self. I can very well understand that I deserve love as much as anyone else. Yet I am not able to see where I should open up to someone and trust that my vulnerability is not being used against me, and when I should guard my personal interests (to survive emotionally and physically). I'm not sure I would call my problem of one of shame as much as one of the awareness of my own dysfunctionality. I have learnt to watch out for people who are looking to abuse or use me. That's normal. Yet I realize, that my dysfunctionalities are attracting experiences that are not so positive. How can I get out of that kind of viscious circle? It is very hard to love before you are being loved. I have never really come across a solution to this issue although I've thought and learnt for a long time. I have come to believe that falling in love is not possible for me, as I am too aware of the illusions behind the admiration of others. I am not sure something is terribly wrong with me? Or maybe I simply do not fit into a world that is so infused with illusions. To allow love to enfold is an option, yet once you allow for that you also commit yourself to a person or a situation, and it is certainly not easy to get out of it later on. Especially when you know how much work may be involved in trying to make a relationship work and you have doubts that you have that much power and capacity as it may require. I think that Amadon is right in that people are good at telling themselves that this or that thing is working well for them, and love is definitely one of the things people don't want to admit that they may not be good at. The most natural thing on earth seems to be the one that is the hardest to access - because we are creatures who know all too well how to fake our reality and distort it to suit our own needs. I feel terribly clueless about this issue. Thank you for bringing out this thing that worries me day and night.

It is late at night and I had a very busy day.  Just wanted to touch base Vivi and indicate that I will consider your comment more deeply tomorrow.  Sleep soundly, for you are God's daughter, and Love is here for the asking, and giving.

All in One Love,

Doug

Dear Vivi-Marie,

Thank you for being so honest in your comment. It was very touching and refreshing to me to see that kind of honest, heartfelt response. So rare that is. Your willingness to face these things honestly will stand you in good stead.

Love,

Asha

Thank you so much Doug, Amadon and Asha! Your responses are indeed loving - even through this virtual media :-). Compassion being a form of love, that is something I sometimes prefer to refer to when love as a concept seems too laden with personal preferences and the romanitcizing of culture. So though we don't know each other personally, we can display compassion in a way that makes love make sense in the practical realm. Right? I'm a bit hurried in my responses as I am at the moment not able to use the internet for long periods of time, so forgive any lapses of thought from my part. Anyway, I really appreciate Amadon your engagement in the actual realization of one's love potential. Sure it's there, but how do we get it out? I have done fairly well on my own so far but I feel increasingly cornered and unable to lift myself up from the hair like Baron Munchenhausen. One thing that comes to mind right now is that I don't necessarily recognize love from another person. The reason being, that all humans have so many ingrained habits and patterns that kind of make the vision foggy. It's really hard for me to trust that the love that I am being offered is going to hold or that it's “good enough” so that I am not having to sacrifice my own needs (provided I can define those needs and see which ones are valid). As for a teacher, well I guess I have trouble with that part as I have trouble to admire people. It's very hard to imagine that an experienced and self-realized person would have interest in hanging out with a sick and dysfunctional person like me. Why would they want to deal with my dysfuntions? Even if these people exist, there are hardly even enough people like that to go around, lol. To sit in a group with a guru seems to me an odd concept, as I would feel as just another member of a herd! Is this a shocking thing to say? I don't mean to downplay anybody's path! I'm hoping to create a dialogue that would help me get to the key of my own issue :-)

Just “for the record,” I have contacted Vivi through private messages.

All is One,

Doug

Thank you for considering my questions. I was aware that I was letting a slight bitterness colour my view of these things, and I pretty much expected to hear what you said. I think the really crucial thing you're mentioning is that there is, in your opinion, more masters than there is demand. I hope you're right, it would certainly bring hope to this world! It also brings me to the fact that in some ways, I've even seen myself as a teacher, I don't kown whether an apt one, but one who wants to help people in my envirnoment (those who happen to be drawn to me for whatever reason) to open up. It's the story of my life to want so badly to help and support but not getting much in return. Evidently I have taken on tasks that were too demanding for my present persona. And of course, in being someone who sees a lot but not everything I have also had to struggle with my own shortcomings. I believe people should be mirrors to each other. Certainly it can happen on countless levels. It seems that you and some others recognize that I look for truth in a sincere manner. Why then do my challenges only get more complex and heavy to deal with? I must be doing something wrong. Or then I no longer trust that what I see as potential in someone is really going to come to bloom. On the other hand it's very hard to turn one's back on people who don't seem to “get it” simply because i can't be sure what I think they should “get” is valid for them and because I have compassion for them as well. I think I'm driven by compassion but it seems to be creating problems for me. I wouldn't go quite as far as to saying that it's about some subpersonality. But how the heck do I know? As I am not so well it's hard for me to cruise around looking for options and shop around. I've got to trust that what comes along is something that I need. Yet is everything that comes along the right thing for us? Can somebody be a real teacher of love despite being dysfunctional in other ways? I would say I learnt something valuable from every experience I had yet they took a great toll on me and I still seem to be in the dark about what I really really need in life both spiritually as well as on the practical level. Especially on the practical level, since it's what are lives are about most of the time! Getting along, having tolerance, develóping compassion… those are not about idealism but about realism. P:S I have heard that mother Theresa wasn't quite the saint she made herself look, but then that's hard to know :-). I'm sorry, I am desillusioned and I find your, Amadon's, realism about modern day spirituality very refreshing and comforting. But  I do need some of that kind of hope you have right now too, that's one thing that's sure :-) Love, Vivi-Mari

Thank you for your responses. I guess it's hard for me to explain things in a way that makes sense, especially as I'm having a lot of issues on my mind right now. I do think that I have a lot of love to give but as Darren says, it's combined with a fear, which of course is conditioned. It doesn't mean it's not there. I do believe we are all teachers though some of the things that we project in form of lessons come from our shadow selves. I haven't seen many people who are true experts on the issue of love, but then again maybe it's just me. I think love can come out in many forms. I feel right now that some things are being intellectualized and put into categories that may be relative to each person's own experiences. So I think for the moment I'll rest my case and think about it some more.

Amadon,

  I know that everybody is to find their own truth but my truth and your's are so much alike,do you think it could be that we have the same FATHER ? I am glad that I have met you.
                     Your friend,Don